Jürgen Dornheim - Procter & Gamble
packaging journal seeks dialogue with the „packaging people“. With people who drive the industry forward. Jürgen Dornheim's task as Director Corporate Packaging Innovation & Sustainability is to make the future of packaging a reality. And because he can do this at the consumer goods group Procter & Gamble is about lots and lots of packaging. A conversation about where the journey is heading.
Mr Dornheim, the terms „sustainability“ and „innovation“ appear side by side on your business card. So sustainability is not possible without innovation?
Yes, we have been thinking very carefully for many years about where we leave traces, where we minimise them and where we can create or close cycles. And the fact that the topic of innovation has been added shows that sustainability requires innovation. My main task is actually to keep my eyes and ears open. On the one hand, to see what we can do better, but also to see where there are no solutions yet, for example. And that's why innovation is one of the main focuses of my work.
You might think that a large company like Procter & Gamble would find it difficult to make changes due to its size and diversity of brands and business areas. But the opposite is the case. How is this journey going for you?
It's not as if we are alone in the world. We have delivery structures and materials that have been established over the decades. On the one hand, we need to provide the impetus to make suggestions or come up with ideas on how to do things differently. But then there is an entire supply industry that needs to be taken along on this journey. And I was also surprised at the beginning how difficult it sometimes is to start this so-called change of mindset, i.e. the change in people's heads. Because, of course, you always have to involve your suppliers and recyclers. And that's not so easy, especially with the quantities that we sometimes need.
And suppliers are just one link in a long chain. We keep hearing here how important it is for a functioning circular economy to bring all areas together. Is that not happening enough yet, or what experience have you had?
That's a realisation that I actually came to very early on. Because if you just look around a bit in your immediate environment, you realise that someone else is working behind the next step - and they might not even know about the material. Ultimately, it's all about the concept of a „circular“ economy. And as we all know: A circle has no beginning and has no end.
I always try to explain this to our developers: „Sit on your packaging or simply travel with it.“ What does a shampoo bottle do, for example? What happens if it doesn't necessarily take the route we want it to? And if it „goes astray“, do we know how we can change that? How can we exert influence here, or who can we approach to find co-operative solutions?
It is also crucial to ask the developers whether they are happy when their recycled shampoo bottle comes back as such. Because if they say, no, we're happy that the material is gone, then we've done something wrong. Then I reply: „Sit down, please try again.“ We want our material to come back and for it to have gone through the entire cycle undamaged.
And of course, as you quite rightly say, this includes not only the trade, but also the sorting and recycling industry, for example. Because at the end of the recycling industry, the former concept of waste has become a valuable raw material again. And we want to use this raw material again.
I always try to explain this to our developers: „Sit on your packaging or simply travel with it.“ What does a shampoo bottle do, for example? What happens if it doesn't necessarily take the route we want it to? And if it „goes astray“, do we know how we can change that? How can we exert influence here, or who can we approach to find co-operative solutions?
It is also crucial to ask the developers whether they are happy when their recycled shampoo bottle comes back as such. Because if they say, no, we're happy that the material is gone, then we've done something wrong. Then I reply: „Sit down, please try again.“ We want our material to come back and for it to have gone through the entire cycle undamaged.
And of course, as you quite rightly say, this includes not only the trade, but also the sorting and recycling industry, for example. Because at the end of the recycling industry, the former concept of waste has become a valuable raw material again. And we want to use this raw material again.
The whole interview in the packaging journal TV Talk
Smart packaging„ is one of those great visions of the future that you are already using on some products with the digital watermark. What has your experience been so far?
Yes, we already use it for a number of products. Every time we create new artwork, we now use the Holy Grail watermark. It's interesting: the original intention to use this watermark for sorting into waste streams has led to others asking themselves: What else can you do with a digital watermark? And the exciting thing for me was that it was suddenly being considered for other applications. For example, people imagined that an invisible watermark could be used when checking out at the till. And so the circle of supporters suddenly became much larger from a completely unfamiliar side. And I am quite confident that digital watermarks will find further functions elsewhere.
Another much-used buzzword when it comes to the future of packaging is „Design 4 Recycling“. Where do you still see a need to catch up?
For some years now, we have been working hard to design all materials in such a way that they are perfectly recyclable using existing processes. This usually means that multi-component materials are turned into mono-materials or that the amount of material used is reduced. Or to consider whether we need colour or not? Because you know that the more colour you put in, the more difficult it will be in the recycling process. And colour does not necessarily serve to improve the stability of a material.
What can smaller manufacturers learn from you? Or is it perhaps even the other way round and you are learning from the small ones?
I always look very closely at what the little guys are doing with new ideas, the so-called start-ups. There are a lot of clever people out there. The fact that someone is small is in the nature of things, because everyone needs a first step, and sometimes it only takes one great idea from one person to get the whole thing going. That's one thing.
However, it has to be said that not all ideas from small companies are innovative. That's also part of my job, to separate these things from each other. But I would say that if there are ten great ideas, there is usually one good one that is worth pursuing and perhaps being supported by us or others to make it bigger.
And conversely, what the little ones can learn from the big ones is that things can work that you didn't think were possible. When you go the extra mile to successfully take a first step in a different direction. I see this in many places at the moment, and I always consider it a certain honour when you see that others are copying an idea that you bring to the market yourself. It shows me that we haven't done everything wrong.
However, it has to be said that not all ideas from small companies are innovative. That's also part of my job, to separate these things from each other. But I would say that if there are ten great ideas, there is usually one good one that is worth pursuing and perhaps being supported by us or others to make it bigger.
And conversely, what the little ones can learn from the big ones is that things can work that you didn't think were possible. When you go the extra mile to successfully take a first step in a different direction. I see this in many places at the moment, and I always consider it a certain honour when you see that others are copying an idea that you bring to the market yourself. It shows me that we haven't done everything wrong.
Then I hope that you will be copied very often, simply for the sake of appreciation. And separating good ideas from bad ones is also a form of waste separation. Finally, let's take two more products from the large P&G range. What does the packaging of the future look like for shampoo, for example?
We are currently experiencing how something can be compressed: There are moist substances, but there are also dry substances. The situation is similar with detergents. The question is: will the customer honour this? Do they go along with it or do they expect there to be a period of transition for certain product categories? In many cases, this won't happen overnight. And we have already learnt the hard way in some markets or in some countries.
And, of course, material changes are also conceivable. We said some time ago, for example, that we want to make bottles that are currently made of plastic from renewable or fibre-based materials. If that were easy, someone would have done it long ago. But we are confident that a lot of new developments and discoveries can still be made in this area. That's why we have a strong research approach there. I am optimistic that we will find a lot more interesting solutions for shampoos and liquid soaps.
And, of course, material changes are also conceivable. We said some time ago, for example, that we want to make bottles that are currently made of plastic from renewable or fibre-based materials. If that were easy, someone would have done it long ago. But we are confident that a lot of new developments and discoveries can still be made in this area. That's why we have a strong research approach there. I am optimistic that we will find a lot more interesting solutions for shampoos and liquid soaps.
Another important product from the big P&G world is toothpaste. The wooden tube certainly doesn't work ...
What we have done over the years: We had multi-layer tubes that were difficult to recycle. We then asked ourselves: What needs to happen so that the same toothpaste content can be transported just as easily from our production plant through the supermarket to the end customer without any losses? That wasn't exactly easy, but we found solutions and we can now say that all of our toothpaste tubes have suddenly moved from the „non-recyclable“ class to the recyclable class. And I am confident that a lot of the tubes that we previously placed on the market will also find their way back into the new tubes as raw material.
Published in packaging journal 7/2021
Special Fachpack:
Trends and news about the trade fair
The future of packaging at Procter & Gamble
Interview Jürgen Dornheim:
Packaging, packaging materials:
Start-up Mr Fred packs dog food in Tetra Paks
Minimum standard for assessing the recyclability of packaging updated
New virgin fibre paper with water-based coating
Live talk on the question: Plastics - quo vadis?
Sustainability:
Efficient packaging for biscuits and waffles
New materials
Studies: How environmentally friendly is silphie paper?
More circular economy for plastic packaging
Labelling:
Company-wide labelling solutions are in demand
Linerless technologies
Packaging technology:
Practical report on automatic pallet stabilisation
Automation:
Practical report on new degrees of freedom despite standardisation
German Packaging Award 2021:
A selection of the best packaging of the year
Previous issues of packaging journal TV Talk
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